April 28, 2024, 02:35:00 PM

Author Topic: designing a zero loss exhaust  (Read 40886 times)

Offline mfilippello

designing a zero loss exhaust
« on: October 21, 2012, 12:04:16 PM »
Hey guys, working on my exhaust for my 406 LS3 build. This is in a FD. Already have JTR 1.75" headers. I need to design/make a single exhaust that will net me as much horsepower as possible while being street-able. I want a full exhaust with no cutouts. I have been reading this article by David Vizard.  http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/

Some of the points worth noting:

1) 2.2 cfm per HP necessary for no loss in HP vs optimum Header/collector design.
2) Pipe flows approx 115 cfm per square inch.
3) Collectors should be designed to proper length and terminate into Pressure wave termination box or atmosphere(open collector)
4) muffler must flow minimum of the equivalent pipe diameter.
5) straight through designs like Magnaflow do not induce pressure drop and are considered the same as straight pipe and have to be included in collector length calculations. Using this style muffler essentially makes your collector length the entire exhaust length and you get no scavenging wave. need a chambered style muffler that has high flow.

so as you can see, these design parameters are going to be very hard to incorporate into a single exhaust setup as dictated by the FD. Doing the math; 600FwHP x 2.2 cfm = 1320 cfm. So I need 4" pipe just to take care of flow. Since we cant run duals and any mufflers (as far as I can tell) need to be installed in series, I need 4" in/out that handle 1320 cfm. I can fit one in the rear and will most likely need a 2nd in center. The issue is that the center muffler is also where the wave termination box needs to go so I can't use a magnaflow syle muffler. It needs to be a chamber style muffler with enough internal volume to simulate dumping the exhaust to atmosphere without also limiting flow as compared to 4" pipe. The ideal volume is 8-10 times one cylinder for each bank. The means I need a center muffler with approx. 850 cu in. internal volume that flows 1320 cfm. This is so much easier to pull off in a dual setup as you can run (2) 3" pipes and each muffler can flow 550 cfm and be run in parallel.

So, whats the real world advantage of designing such a complicated exhaust when I'm sure plenty of people have just thrown x muffler on with good results. well from what I read, the scavenging wave created by having the correct length of collector pipe, can fill the cylinder with about 70cc more air. On a 350 cu in motor, this turns it into a 383 in the tuning band. This is not a trivial amount. Some of the questions I have though are: 1) do I need 4" all the way back or can it drop to 3.5 near the differential since the exhaust is cooling. 2) how loud do you think a 4" exhaust will be if I just make a hollow chamber (5x9 x20) in center using a gutted muffler case and then just use something like a 4" magnaflow in rear.

Here are a few mufflers I have looked at to try and come up with a dual purpose center design.

1) Cherry Bomb Vortex Dual 3" in single 3.5" out( I would have to redo exit to increase size
2) Aeroturbine 4" in/out  6" round
3) flowmaster (they are chamber stlyle but flow sucks)

Mike


Offline MPbdy

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2012, 02:56:42 PM »
I have a warped view of exhaust design which causes my contributions to always get ignored and sometimes slaughtered on the internet so I won't go into it, but read everything Vizard publishes with a grain of salt.  He will be the first, and sometimes only, person to tell you how great he is.

Plus, why would you take a limey's advice on how to build a small block...  :yay:

Offline Sabre002

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 03:35:40 PM »
not to be a dick but exhaust is one thing that has been covered a shit ton of times here. 

http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=7257.0
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=851.0
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=3269.0

thats just the 3 of the top 10 from searching "FD Exhaust"
Josh
Manager Business Development, Mazda Motorsports
For info on how to join the Mazda Motorsports Team Support Program Email me.
Jsmit295@mazdausa.com

Offline mfilippello

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 04:21:31 PM »
not to be a dick but exhaust is one thing that has been covered a shit ton of times here. 

http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=7257.0
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=851.0
http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=3269.0

thats just the 3 of the top 10 from searching "FD Exhaust"

Not to be a dick, but those threads didn't even touch upon any of the topics discussed in that article I linked or brought up by me. I can fab up many different ways to get from my headers back. How many are functionally optimum and don't leave horsepower on the table for my cu in motor? Did you see any flow #'s on the mufflers used in those designs? Any calculations on how long to make the collectors based on valve BBDC? How may dual 3"  to single 3" y's did I see which are functionally incorrect. Like the topic said, "zero loss exhaust" not point "A" to point "B"

Offline BeasTT

  • Supporting Member
  • Top Fuel
  • Posts: 5877
  • Twinz for teh winz
  • View Gallery
    • View Profile
Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 04:34:46 PM »
Lmfao

Get back to the drawing board if you don't think you can fit a dual exhaust on an fd
Nick Shultz

1993 Rx-7
371ci, Twin Billet 6265's, Twin A2W's, ProEFI 128, RacePak IQ3,
McLeod RXT, Speedfab 8.8 solid axle, QA1s, FIC 2150cc, Magnafuel 4303

Offline mfilippello

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »
yes you can run duals. How many mufflers? where would you put mufflers? How much cfm does the muffler flow on each leg? how loud?  Just curious.

Offline Sabre002

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 05:53:15 PM »
OK Mr. know it all what makes you think your 406 LS3 needs some crazy exhaust like that.  Did you even read and look at the layouts of the exhaust on the threads I posted or did ya look at the topic and go oh they are just fitting it into place.  I find it hard to believe that you are going to find out something that has not already been tried.  Also when our HP numbers for engine combo's are on par for the HP/TQ numbers of corvettes with LG, lingenfelter, Corsa, take your pic of big name exhaust, what makes you think we have not been down this road.  When a 427 LS7 runs the same size primary pipe, collector, and pipe size why do I really need to go larger?  Also the designs are all based off fitting it in the car you have to work with. 

To answer your questions directly
Quote
do I need 4" all the way back or can it drop to 3.5 near the differential since the exhaust is cooling


No I dont see you needing 4" pipe needed on this unless you have some serious RPMs planned for this engine.

Quote
2) how loud do you think a 4" exhaust will be if I just make a hollow chamber (5x9 x20) in center using a gutted muffler case and then just use something like a 4" magnaflow in rear.

VERY LOUD, I bet it will be in the 110 DB range at 50FT on the A scale.  My car idles at 93 and cracked 105db @50 just at 3K rpm.  That was a stock compression engine. 

Better question is why not us a mandrel bent cat back made for the RX7 that has been tested?  Then fit the rest together?  Also if your concered about making power you need to throw that street able term out the fucking window.  Mufflers rob power.  That being said my setup is 2.5" duals in a FD with and "X" pipe and Apex dual catback.  There are no muflers in the system at all its strait through.  On a small cam 236/236 .589/.589 112 LSA 346 it made 405RWHP / 375RWTQ.  Thats good numbers for the mods and higher then most with a cam that size that has no split for scavanged exhaust flow.  I would be more worried about a 4" ID intake over the rad setup then I would putting this much into a "street able max effors exhaust." 
Josh
Manager Business Development, Mazda Motorsports
For info on how to join the Mazda Motorsports Team Support Program Email me.
Jsmit295@mazdausa.com

Offline Demon

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »
LOL on a 550hp motor "needing" 4" exhaust.  You probably wouldn't lose any HP with a 3" exhaust, and it would be MUCH quieter.
'93 RX7 (co-project with macnewma)
'95 Supra Turbo Billet GT42-76

Offline BeasTT

  • Supporting Member
  • Top Fuel
  • Posts: 5877
  • Twinz for teh winz
  • View Gallery
    • View Profile
Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 06:11:42 PM »
yes you can run duals. How many mufflers? where would you put mufflers? How much cfm does the muffler flow on each leg? how loud?  Just curious.

How many mufflers do you want to run? Run that many mufflers.
Crawl under the car. Where does it look like a muffler could fit? Put a muffler there.
CFM? Enough.
How loud? About as loud as an LS motor with X amount of mufflers.
Nick Shultz

1993 Rx-7
371ci, Twin Billet 6265's, Twin A2W's, ProEFI 128, RacePak IQ3,
McLeod RXT, Speedfab 8.8 solid axle, QA1s, FIC 2150cc, Magnafuel 4303

Offline mfilippello

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 07:07:29 PM »
My buddy had a cam and headers only LS1. Stock heads. dual 3" into 4" single exhaust with just a magnaflow 4" racing muffler in rear. So loud you could hear him in the next subdivision. So if I go single 4", that would most likely require (2) 4" mufflers in series. 4" pipe flows 1355 cfm.  A 620 flywheel hp car needs 1364 cfm for zero loss. (2.2 x 620). care to recommend a couple 1350 cfm mufflers? Or should I just through anything in there that has a 4" in/out, even though it flows the equivalent of 3" pipe? Most muffler companies don't list flow ratings which I think is crazy.

If i run duals, I need 3" pipe and a pair of mufflers in parallel that flow 675 cfm each.  This would give me 2 mufflers for the sound quieting i need. Any idea how to put two mufflers in parallel.

Offline zbrown

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 07:14:43 PM »
yes you can run duals. How many mufflers? where would you put mufflers? How much cfm does the muffler flow on each leg? how loud?  Just curious.

How many mufflers do you want to run? Run that many mufflers.
Crawl under the car. Where does it look like a muffler could fit? Put a muffler there.
CFM? Enough.
How loud? About as loud as an LS motor with X amount of mufflers.

no no, that only works for us dumb simple people
8.50/165



Offline mfilippello

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 07:20:43 PM »
OK Mr. know it all what makes you think your 406 LS3 needs some crazy exhaust like that.  Did you even read and look at the layouts of the exhaust on the threads I posted or did ya look at the topic and go oh they are just fitting it into place.  I find it hard to believe that you are going to find out something that has not already been tried.  Also when our HP numbers for engine combo's are on par for the HP/TQ numbers of corvettes with LG, lingenfelter, Corsa, take your pic of big name exhaust, what makes you think we have not been down this road.  When a 427 LS7 runs the same size primary pipe, collector, and pipe size why do I really need to go larger?  Also the designs are all based off fitting it in the car you have to work with. 

first, did I say I knew it all. I post a tech article with some pretty technical aspects looking for discussion on these principals. Yes I had already read through all those post. Is 4" exhaust crazy on a 600 hp motor.? I think not. Go on LS1 tech and see how many camaro guys run single 4" at this level. All those cars run dual 3" which is needed at this HP level. This is a tad over single 4". Anything smaller is restrictive and loses HP.

here are some charts
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TcQ&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1067&bih=568&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=7QSihi846JeJLM:&imgrefurl=http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/250112_1&docid=2ldl6WXw51o8FM&imgurl=http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/250112/original/exhaust-size-chart.jpg&w=700&h=772&ei=2oCEULW3JpLC9QSu-IGADA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=95&vpy=129&dur=3141&hovh=236&hovw=214&tx=118&ty=129&sig=111932290734705955888&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=123&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:71


http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/c0mpl3x/exhdiam.jpg





To answer your questions directly
Quote
do I need 4" all the way back or can it drop to 3.5 near the differential since the exhaust is cooling


No I dont see you needing 4" pipe needed on this unless you have some serious RPMs planned for this engine.

Quote
2) how loud do you think a 4" exhaust will be if I just make a hollow chamber (5x9 x20) in center using a gutted muffler case and then just use something like a 4" magnaflow in rear.

VERY LOUD, I bet it will be in the 110 DB range at 50FT on the A scale.  My car idles at 93 and cracked 105db @50 just at 3K rpm.  That was a stock compression engine. 

Better question is why not us a mandrel bent cat back made for the RX7 that has been tested?  Then fit the rest together?  Also if your concered about making power you need to throw that street able term out the fucking window.  Mufflers rob power.  That being said my setup is 2.5" duals in a FD with and "X" pipe and Apex dual catback.  There are no muflers in the system at all its strait through.  On a small cam 236/236 .589/.589 112 LSA 346 it made 405RWHP / 375RWTQ.  Thats good numbers for the mods and higher then most with a cam that size that has no split for scavanged exhaust flow.  I would be more worried about a 4" ID intake over the rad setup then I would putting this much into a "street able max effors exhaust."

Offline mfilippello

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 07:30:46 PM »
LOL on a 550hp motor "needing" 4" exhaust.  You probably wouldn't lose any HP with a 3" exhaust, and it would be MUCH quieter.

Not true. please see charts I linked. I can find tons more. For 406 cu in motor making 600 hp. you need single 4" pipe or dual 3" for no restriction. Why do you think Z06's run dual 3"?  Collector size has to do with primary size (1.75 x primary diameter) this diameter needs to be carried into Y where it need to increase in size to 4" to not create turbulence and back pressure.

http://guerragroup.com/2000TA.htm  I'll find the thread. I had Patrick spec my cam. He even told me I need 4" from the merge back for this build. At minimum a 4" intermediate pipe.

Offline BeasTT

  • Supporting Member
  • Top Fuel
  • Posts: 5877
  • Twinz for teh winz
  • View Gallery
    • View Profile
Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 07:35:55 PM »
At what EGT are you figuring for the exhaust CFM your motor is going to require? Take into consideration reversion? What about ethanol content and the amount of water vapor in the exhaust?

Only thing that matters on a performance exhaust is that you put whistler tips on it. The whistle goes wooooo WOOOOO
Nick Shultz

1993 Rx-7
371ci, Twin Billet 6265's, Twin A2W's, ProEFI 128, RacePak IQ3,
McLeod RXT, Speedfab 8.8 solid axle, QA1s, FIC 2150cc, Magnafuel 4303

Offline mfilippello

Re: designing a zero loss exhaust
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 07:44:36 PM »
Better question is why not us a mandrel bent cat back made for the RX7 that has been tested?  Then fit the rest together? 

i have a Apexi Titanium N1 exhaust I purchased that was listed as having 95mm pipe (3.75") to use as a catback. It arrived only having 85mm pipe. Apexi has been selling this exhaust for something like 10 years and I guess I'm the first person to realize that there info is wrong. Now they have changed there website to 85mm pipe. That is why I asked about 3.5" pipe in the rear and exhaust gases cooling.

I would be more worried about a 4" ID intake over the rad setup then I would putting this much into a "street able max effors exhaust."

Already have 4" intake piping. Rule of thumb is intake is 1.5 times HP, so 600 times 1.5 = 900 cfm which 3.5" pipe can handle. Exhaust needs larger piping size than intake on same motor due to heat and expanding gases so why is 4" single exhaust crazy when dual 3" is normal?