May 02, 2024, 10:04:21 PM

Author Topic: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z  (Read 7608 times)

Offline mattster03

Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« on: June 02, 2014, 01:52:20 PM »
I was reading over on the HybridZ forum and found a really cool thread.  This guy actually built a rig to test the torsional rigidity of a 280Z, then seam welded it, then added a cage.  The rig is pretty genious I think and it's cool to see some real-world data.  Now who's going to do this for an FC and FD?

Pictures are on page 3, roll cage results on page 4:

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/116305-torsional-rigidity-testing-280z/
Current Car: 1993 Mazda RX7 Touring, LS1/T56, Stock Stock Stock

1993 Mazda RX7 R1, LS1/T56, EPS 230/238, TSP Ported heads
10.826 @ 128 , 1.53 60' - SOLD

Feature Article - http://www.importmeet.com/blog/2012/03/29/best-of-both-worlds-v8rx7guys-ls1-swapped-1993-mazda-rx-7/
Swap Info - http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2801662

1986 Mazda RX7 GXL, LT1/T56 "Retired"
Swap Info - http://www.cardomain.com/ride/641869

Offline spacevomit

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 02:26:20 PM »
Seam-welding caused an apparent 10% loss in rigidity - interesting.

Offline gc3

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 02:57:27 PM »
id like to see more data points to know the reputability of those numbers.

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2014, 03:14:54 PM »
I've seen spot welds break from stress, yet seam welding weakened the chassis by almost 10%?

I'm more than a little skeptical about his results.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline mattster03

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2014, 04:09:37 PM »
Seems to me like the original data point at least passes the "smell test"and as long as nothing changed between tests besides the stitch welds and later the cage (which I certainly don't know) it becomes as simple as comparing the before to after.  Of course the O.P. does seem to be on a bit of a mission to prove that seam welding isn't all it's promised to be so it might be smart to take the results with a grain of salt.  I just really appreciated his ingenuity with the rig and the fact that he actually went out and tested something that's generally accepted as "true".
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 05:40:44 PM by mattster03 »
Current Car: 1993 Mazda RX7 Touring, LS1/T56, Stock Stock Stock

1993 Mazda RX7 R1, LS1/T56, EPS 230/238, TSP Ported heads
10.826 @ 128 , 1.53 60' - SOLD

Feature Article - http://www.importmeet.com/blog/2012/03/29/best-of-both-worlds-v8rx7guys-ls1-swapped-1993-mazda-rx-7/
Swap Info - http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2801662

1986 Mazda RX7 GXL, LT1/T56 "Retired"
Swap Info - http://www.cardomain.com/ride/641869

Offline zbrown

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 05:39:42 PM »
I'd believe it

Nice link

I wish he would show the cage. A full 10pt makes a serious difference
8.50/165



Offline kartermdb

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 08:31:52 PM »
I have been doing similar research for when I build a lotus 7 replica.  Here is an interesting thread based on those chassis styles.

http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2224

Offline mefarri

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 10:49:48 PM »
Someone explain how welding it makes it less rigid.
"I'm not sure what your intent was because I don't speak "dumbshit", but next time, start your own thread. "

-Jimlab

"Otherwise it looks like something I can build over a weekend, if I spent the first day watching TV."

-Blake motherfucking McBride

Offline quinns

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 01:08:12 AM »
I'm also wondering how it made it less rigid. I could see no gain but seriously, a loss? That makes no sense whatsoever.
1993 Rx-7 Base LS3 TR6060 Ronin 8.8
1997.5 Hummer H1
2006 Hummer H2 SUT

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 07:13:16 AM »
I could even see 1% or so.   But an almost 10% loss just makes no sense.   That's like putting in subframe connectors and losing rigidity.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline gc3

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 08:02:24 AM »
the theory (he mentioned) behind why it got softer was because welding heated the metal and annealed it.
basically meaning the metal got softer.

which it perfectly plausible, but hard to swallow 10%

Offline wickedrx7


1993 Touring, 2012 L99, T-56, Ronnin 8.8, Ohlins, Speedhut, Samberg and lots of custom parts
Build Thread - http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=19354.0
Pictures - www.flikr.com/wickedrx7

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 08:27:40 AM »
I guess if he welded it at 200 amps and just fried the whole thing maybe.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.

Offline clocker

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 08:33:18 AM »
I could even see 1% or so.   But an almost 10% loss just makes no sense.   That's like putting in subframe connectors and losing rigidity.

I understand your skepticism (and share it, to an extent) but it seems the ball is in the doubter's court- either find fault in the methodology or replicate the experiment with different results.

Keep in mind also that the Z chassis is not directly comparable to the much later FC/FD units.
First of all there's no b-pillar (which is why nearly every Z you see will have a crack at the roof> rear quarter joint) and the chassis lacks the deeply drawn structure that modern metallurgy and forming allows.
It looks like a modern unibody but lacks the benefit of structural analysis/development available today.

*Bear with me, the following is an analogy...*
When radials began to supplant bias ply tires, British sports car owners started popping their 48 spoke Dunlop wire wheels...the extra grip and braking force just overwhelmed them.
It's possible that seam welding eliminated enough body slop to concentrate the forces in a smaller, already vulnerable area, which now deflects more easily than before.

Just a guess, based on the assumption that the data as presented is correct.

Offline digitalsolo

Re: Interesting torsional Rigidity Test on a 280Z
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 08:40:48 AM »
Not an unreasonable theory.

What I am finding confusing is that if you're seam welding where there are existing spot welds, you shouldn't make a HUGE difference in rigidity either way, you should just add support to those not-that-awesome spot welds.

I always thought of seam welding as a durability modification more than a big rigidity improvement.
Blake MF'ing McBride
1988 Mazda RX7 - Turbo LS1/T56/ProEFI/8.8/Not Slow...   sold.
1965 Mustang Coupe - TT Coyote, TR6060, modern brakes/suspension...
2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Gen V LT4/TR6060, upper/lower pullies, headers, tune.
2021 Tesla Model 3 Performance - Stock...ish.